[oats-sig] dojinshi & Mulberry Symbol Set

With pd anyone can do anything they like including using them for

Steve,

did you read the dojinshi article?
if you did you'd know why you'd want people to do "anything they  
like", yup even to make money.
please read it, it's mercifully short.

regarding complexity:
where are people supposed to put this licence?
you have a pretty complex system already, one that's hard for non  
developers to emulate.

it's a system which so far doesn't have resources which use the symbols.
when it does how will people viewing those resources know?
will they have to chose and agree a licence before they get to see  
each resource?

it's not so complex if people limit themselves to your symbols,
but once they start using a mixed set, do they have to agree for each  
symbol?
whether printed or online the number of contributors can get out of  
hand quite quickly.

how about if I put them in an email?
does the recipient have to agree before replying to or forwarding the  
email?

in an SVG the cc is normally in the metadata, but once this is printed  
it's 'lost' did I fail to meet your requirements?
would I know that? how would I ensure that everyone knew?

hope you understand my concerns

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd

j.chetwynd at btinternet.com
http://www.iconomy.org/

+44 (0) 20 7978 1764

On 1 May 2008, at 19:09, Steve Lee wrote:

> With pd anyone can do anything they like including using them for
> proprietary purposes (commercial use is not an issue) . With CC you
> should have some protection against that. By insisting on SA we should
> be able to get access to any developments and include them back into
> the project.
>
> What is the complexity for users if you just say, use them as you like
> but make sure any derived works are made available in the same way.
> Otherwise we get a bit cross with you ;-)
>
> I don't know if this is tested in courts or just good will, but I
> doubt it is not tested.
>
> My 2 Cs
>
> Steve
>
> On 01/05/2008, Jonathan Chetwynd <j.chetwynd at btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Garry,
>>
>> I'm sure you've considered this in depth, but had you come across  
>> dojinshi?
>>
>> I raised exactly the issues you describe with Lawrence Lessig of the
>> creative commons a few years ago.
>> within a few months he published this article:
>> http://www.lessig.org/content/columns/red3.pdf
>>
>> I hope like me that you will consider releasing your SVG symbols in  
>> the
>> public domain.
>>
>> best wishes
>>
>> the practical reality is that you are relying on good will in  
>> either case.
>> why encumber people?
>> my interests are primarily with enabling the end-users,
>> where even the concept of copyright may be a step too far...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Chetwynd
>>
>> j.chetwynd at btinternet.com
>> http://www.iconomy.org/
>>
>> +44 (0) 20 7978 1764
>>
>>
>> On 1 May 2008, at 18:10, Paxtoncrafts Garry wrote:
>>
>>
>> Just thought I'd give an overview of the objectives of our symbol set
>> project. Might help everyone to see where we're coming from.
>>
>> Mulberry Symbol set project objectives
>> Our key customers are Speech and Language Therapists (SaLTs) plus  
>> other
>> carers, teaching staff, etc, who are seeking symbol based solutions  
>> for
>> their client's speech and communication problems.
>>
>> Understanding that market: This group's main use of symbols and  
>> symbol
>> software is in .wmf format (such as PCS, Widget/Rebus, Maketon,  
>> etc).  But,
>> a lack of funds within the NHS means that the end-client (perhaps  
>> an adult
>> stroke victim or child with cerebral palsy) often does not have  
>> access to
>> symbols or symbol-software to enable their communication.  A notable
>> exception to this is for the under-19's still in education, who do  
>> attract
>> some local government funding.  For others it often depends whether  
>> family
>> members are willing to provide funds, or grants from charities, etc.
>>
>> Consequently, many of the commercially available software products,  
>> hardware
>> solutions and symbol sets are simply not accessible by a large part  
>> of the
>> disabled community. For example, the model for SaLTs in Essex and  
>> Suffolk is
>> typically to photocopy black and white symbols from commercial  
>> symbol sets
>> that they have purchased and create hardcopy printed charts for  
>> each clients
>> – higher forms of AAC are rarely available, except in the schools  
>> context.
>>
>> In this captive market, there is no need for fast response and little
>> competition by symbol developers.  So SaLTs struggle to find modern  
>> symbols
>> such as iPod, Wii, etc.  When new addendums or additional symbols are
>> released by commercial suppliers, clients often don't know about  
>> them, plus
>> these are not free - the addendums have to be purchased.  Even  
>> worse, where
>> the symbols are bundled in with the software, you often have to re- 
>> purchase
>> the symbols each time a new software product is purchased that  
>> incorporates
>> symbols, even for the same client PC!
>>
>> Licensing: Commercial license agreements quite rightly protect the
>> investment of symbol designers organisations, providing their revenue
>> stream.  However, we have found this a limit to innovation.  For  
>> example,
>> our earlier intent to design a symbol-based internet chat program  
>> foundered
>> because existing commercial symbol set suppliers were not willing  
>> to allow
>> their symbols to be transmitted across the internet, for obvious  
>> commercial
>> reasons.  The only solution that was acceptable was a program that  
>> required
>> each client to purchase their own local copy of a symbol set.
>>
>> Our response:
>> -        To create a free symbol set designed for use by anyone  
>> with speech
>> problems who requires symbols to support their communication needs.
>>
>> -        A license as close to "public domain" as possible will be  
>> selected
>> (Creative Commons SA-BY), but which protects the significant effort  
>> and
>> funding that is being invested from undesired exploitation.  Our  
>> preference
>> is to deliver the symbols free of cost at the point of delivery, but
>> commercial gain is permitted, as is the modification and free
>> re-distribution of our symbols.  The license ensures our aims  
>> continue in
>> perpetuity, including all derivative works.
>>
>> -          We are not in the business of competing with existing  
>> symbol
>> sets, but we do wish to provide a symbol set that
>> o        is at least of equivalent, if not higher quality than  
>> those that
>> already exist,
>> o        contains modern symbols and is constantly growing in  
>> content, but
>> at zero cost to the client.
>> o        is designed to appeal to adults (who often find existing  
>> symbols
>> somewhat "juvenile" in design)
>> o        is a compatible format (eg, .wmf), to allow ours to be  
>> incorporated
>> into the existing software and hardware products to complement  
>> existing
>> symbol sets
>> o        is available in additional formats such as .svg as a  
>> resource to
>> support new  initiatives in symbol-based developments, at zero cost  
>> to
>> developers.
>>
>> These were the drivers that inspired us to fire up the project a  
>> couple of
>> years ago. I'd certainly be interested to hear from anyone who  
>> feels the
>> above scenario has improved (or worsened), as these issues are the  
>> lie
>> behind the project justification.
>>
>> Many thanks
>> Garry Paxton
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Steve Lee
> --
> Open Source Assistive Technology Software
> web: fullmeasure.co.uk
> blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

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