[senco-forum] gifted and talented

From mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 13 18:05:19 2006

See the website http://www.nagty.ac.uk/
Educational Psychologist assessments can be used as well as CATS, MidYis
etc
Jenny

-----Original Message-----
From: Allyson Bremner [mailto:a.bremner at oratory.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 October 2006 17:38
To: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
Subject: [senco-forum] gifted and talented

How do you all identify potential gifted and talented students?  Would
you need high CAT scores across all 3 reasoning levels or would two be
enough.  And how high is high enough?  130+?  Do you put them on a
register?  Our intake is 11, 13 and 16yrs with the main one being 13
yrs.   Having identified them what do you do then?  We are only 400
strong, non-selective, with plenty of dyslexics etc but with some bright
boys at the top end of the scale.  At the moment I think we just make
them do more GCSEs!   Any ideas welcome.  

Ally

With kind regards

Mrs A J Bremner

Head of Curriculum Support

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>From mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 13 18:05:19 2006
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From: "Mary Kelly" <mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com>
To: "'LaurieMaybanks'" <laurie at maybanks.net>,
	"'Amanda'" <amandavh at btinternet.com>,
<senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [senco-forum] Urgent question re statistics please
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:04:36 +0100
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It's OK, I am qualified to identify dyslexia in children and I do not
myself support the discrepancy model - the evidence for phonological
awareness and working memory deficits is far too strong, and the need to
intervene early far too great. No, I have a child I am certain is NOT
dyslexic, but I do suspect there is something going on, perhaps with
expressive language and/or processing. My question was purely about the
statistics. I'm trying to reassure myself that I can justify my concerns
in case I meet with parental resistance!
I've had lots of helpful responses, including this one, and I'm very
grateful for them all.
With thanks,
Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: LaurieMaybanks [mailto:laurie at maybanks.net] 
Sent: 13 October 2006 15:50
To: 'Mary Kelly'; 'Amanda'; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
Subject: RE: [senco-forum] Urgent question re statistics please

Hi, 

In terms of a difference in standardised scores what you are in effect
describing is the 'discrepancy' model where there is a mismatch between
subtest scores and/or between overall scores with other tests. Not
everyone
goes along with this model but it's a starting point!

Personally I would only use PhAB in an initial battery of tests and
having a
picture of the child's performance in several areas I would then decide
what
I needed to do to 'dig deeper'.

For example in terms of phonological awareness I may consider using
CTOPP
(amongst others).

I should point out that the alliteration test in PhAB is really only for
comparison with the other subtests - it's not really an indicator of
dyslexia. I think it can give a clue as to slow processing and act as a
pointer towards further investigation.

Also of course other factors come into play - test conditions, student's
attitude, etc. and of course whether they are just having a good or a
bad
day. So performance can vary from one day to another on the same test
(which
of course you can't repeat that soon).

In terms of standard deviations the bulk of students (68%) are the norm
and
although you can split this into low and high (e.g. standardised score
85 to
100 and 100 to 115) I personally am wary of that, think of the student
who
scores SS98 but the confidence band is 80% or 90% on the test. They
could be
quite a bit higher (or lower).

So it all comes down to what you want to achieve - if it's a diagnosis
then
you get clues as to what to check out next from an initial battery of
tests.
You also need the student's history (birth to present) If it's to show
progress then an increase in standardised score will show that (subject
to
test factors, etc...)

Might be worth talking to your EP or specialist teacher as diagnosis is
a
reasonably specialised area.

Laurie

-----Original Message-----
From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of Mary Kelly
Sent: 13 October 2006 14:16
To: 'Amanda'; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
Subject: RE: [senco-forum] Urgent question re statistics please

I'm thinking more in terms of a difference between scores on different
tests, or on subtests, for the same individual and for diagnostic
purposes (I don't mean "diagnostic" like a label, but as wanting to
understand what's going on for the child). For example, if a child
scores more or less in keeping with his underlying ability on most of
the subtests within the PhAB, but has a lower score in, say, the
alliterative fluency test. The difference in standard scores is more
than 15 points. Does that suggest that it would not occur by chance, and
therefore requires investigation? Similarly, if there was a mismatch
between underlying nonverbal ability and receptive vocabulary?
Mary
-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda [mailto:amandavh at btinternet.com] 
Sent: 13 October 2006 07:17
To: Mary Kelly; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Urgent question re statistics please

Hi Mary

No expert but this is what I think.
Yes, a difference of 15 points is a standard deviation and is
statistically significant.

A small improvement in standardised score is a big improvement in
percentile rank.  Examples:  SS 80  PR 9  SS 95  PR 37  SS 110 PR 74
So a difference of 15 points in SS makes a completely different
difference in PR.

To me, it is all about what you want to prove and who to.  I'd use the
one which proved that I'm making a big difference to the child if I want
to prove that the programme I'm using is working well or the one which
showed that, despite my best efforts, the child has made little or no
improvement if I need to show that.
Am a a pragmatist or just cynical?
Amanda

Mary Kelly <mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com> wrote:
Could someone out there who is more statistics-literate than I am please
answer these two questions:
1. Am I right in thinking that a difference of 15 points in
standard scores is a standard deviation and is statistically
significant?
2. Am I right in thinking that it is NOT right to plot percentiles
as a graph because it would exaggerate any differences and make them
look more significant than they really are. That is, graphs should show
standard scores rather than percentiles?
I'd be really grateful for an answer tonight if at all possible please?
Many thanks,
Mary

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Secondary SENCO
Cornwall
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