[senco-forum] b d p confusion

Out of interest, Biffe, try saying whole words rather than the single

Thanks for the professional explanation.  I always admire someone who can
remember what the original point was.

Biff Crabbe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nafisa Shehu" <Nafisa.Shehu at merton.gov.uk>
To: "Biff Crabbe" <ba at biffc.vispa.com>; "Sharon Fawcitt"
<sfawcitt at dsl.pipex.com>; "Mary Kelly" <mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com>; "Maggie
Downie" <maizie2004 at yahoo.co.uk>; <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:30 PM
Subject: RE: [senco-forum] b d p confusion

/p/ is a voiceless bilabial plosive, /b/ is a voiced bilabial plosive, /t/
is a voiceless alveolar (area behind the teeth) plosive and /d/ is a voiced
alveolar plosive.  We may all say sounds e.g. /p/ in a slightly different
place but it is still largely made by putting the lips together.  The brain
will, on the whole pigeon hole slight variations under the target sound
unless the variations become so marked that they make a different sound in
the particular language.  For example, if we say /p/ by curling the lower
lip back and touching it just inside the upper lip we would mostly still
perceive it as /p/ but probably comment that it was a 'funny' /p/.  (Some
people would not notice at all).  In some language somewhere, however, it
may actually be perceived as a totally different sound which would
completely change the meaning of the word it was used in.  See also /l/ and
/r/ in Japanese and /w/ and /v/ in some languages from the Indian
subcontinents.  In those languages the phonemes mentioned are not distinct
from each other and are used interchangeably whereas, as we know they change
the meaning of words in English and are therefore distinct from each other.
An interesting side issue but in fact the exact place of articulation does
not matter when we look back at the original point.  Unless of the course
the child has difficulties with perceiving sounds.
Nafisa

TEACHER/SPEECH & LANGUAGE THERAPIST
Language Behaviour & Learning Support Team (LBL)
& Team for Autistic Spectrum and Communication Disorders (TASC)
(London Borough of Merton; Children, Schools & Families Dept.)
Chaucer Centre, Canterbury Road, Morden, Surrey, SM4 6PX
020 8288 5628

-----Original Message-----
From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk]On Behalf Of Biff Crabbe
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:55 AM
To: Sharon Fawcitt; 'Mary Kelly'; 'Maggie Downie';
senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
Subject: Re: [senco-forum] b d p confusion

Sharon - I even tried in front of the mirror, much to the amusement of the
children ('why is Dad watching himself say 'big pig, duck tuck'
repeatedly?') - I still use different part of the lips / have different
positioning of tongue against roof of mouth.

Biff bigpigducktuck Crabbe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Fawcitt" <sfawcitt at dsl.pipex.com>
To: "'Biff Crabbe'" <ba at biffc.vispa.com>; "'Mary Kelly'"
<mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com>; "'Maggie Downie'" <maizie2004 at yahoo.co.uk>;
<senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:43 AM
Subject: RE: [senco-forum] b d p confusion

> Out of interest, Biffe, try saying whole words rather than the single
sound
> e.g. big/pig or  duck/tuck.  Does that feel more similar to you?  It's
very,
> very similar for me - I would venture it's identical for b/p for me.  I
> wonder if dialect plays a part?
> Sharon F.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
> [mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of Biff Crabbe
> Sent: 12 October 2006 21:24
> To: Mary Kelly; 'Maggie Downie'; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
>
> I don't form 'b' and 'p' orally in the same way - the 'b' is formed
towards
> the back of my lips; the 'p' is formed further forward and has a slightly
> different shaping of the lips.
>
> For 'd', my tongue contacts the roof of the mouth further back than for
't'.
> For 't', the tongue seems to be involved in producing the plosive effect.
>
> So they're equivalents up to a point!  (At least in my mouth)
>
> Meandering thread - strayed far from the original - but definitely
> interesting as a parent of a child with speech difficulties.
>
> Biff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mary Kelly" <mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com>
> To: "'Maggie Downie'" <maizie2004 at yahoo.co.uk>;
> <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:03 PM
> Subject: RE: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
>
>
> > /B/ and /p/ are voiced and unvoiced equivalents;
> > /d/ and /t/ are voiced and unvoiced equivalents.
> > Mary
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
> > [mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of Maggie
> > Downie
> > Sent: 12 October 2006 16:52
> > To: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
> > Subject: Re: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
> >
> > Well, I've been sitting here saying /b/, /d/ repeatedly and the mouth
> > movements are quite different.  Am I some sort of freak?  To say /d/
> > the tongue touches the roof of the mouth and the lips are  parted from
> > the start, whereas the tongue doesn't move at all in /b/ and the lips
> > start off closed and open as air is forced through them.
> >
> >
> >
> > Maggie
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Sharon Fawcitt <sfawcitt at dsl.pipex.com>
> > To: Olanys at aol.com; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
> > Sent: Thursday, 12 October, 2006 12:21:19 AM
> > Subject: RE: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
> >
> > I agree.  It is important to find out what is causing the problem first
> > -
> > see Aly's and Mary Kelly's posts -and help accordingly,  or you will not
> > be
> > helping the child at all.
> > b/p is commonly an auditory processing problem initially.  The mouth
> > movements are identical - feel for yourself when you announce each - one
> > is
> > voiced, one is not, but otherwise, identical mouth movement.
> > Sharon F.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
> > [mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of
> > Olanys at aol.com
> > Sent: 11 October 2006 22:54
> > To: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
> > Subject: Re: [senco-forum] b d confusion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Sure, I  agree. I'm thinking that first you must be able to perceive
> > that
> > there is a  difference between the phonemes though - if they sound the
> > same to you, you  won't know which kinaesthetic feel to associate with
> > which phoneme, and  therefore confusion will continue, no matter how
> > clearly you can  distinguish between the graphemes. Don't you think
> > so?"
> >
> >
> >
> > I totally agree Mary. It is either, as I said in my original post on
> > this
> > topic, an auditory processing issue (differentiating the phonemes) or a
> > visual
> > processing issue (distinguishing between the graphemes) and you need to
> > know
> > which one. It may even be both...
> >
> >
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Aly
> >
> > Chair Auditory  Processing Disorder in the UK/APDUK
> > www.lacewingmultimedia.com/APD.htm
> > www.apduk.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
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