[senco-forum] b d p confusion

I thought Sharon's posting excellent. Don't know if this watered

Am I peculiar (very likely) or do other people find voiced and  
unvoiced the reverse of this?  Try putting your hand on your throat  
while you say them.  Jill
On 29 Oct 2006, at 09:37, E Olson wrote:

> I thought Sharon's posting excellent.  Don't know if this watered  
> down version might help too?
>
> The similarities  usually described   are
> b and p are labial plosives, made by the lips, with a miniblast of  
> air coming forward to make them , originating in the front of the  
> mouth for b (technically described as "unvoiced")  and further back  
> for p (described as "voiced").
>
> similarly, t and d  (and n, apparently) are dental  consonants- t  
> being unvoiced (mouth air) and d voiced (air from further back)  -  
> have forgotten what they call n.
>
> I found Wikipedia reminded me fairly clearly of more than I ever  
> thought I'd want to remember about Phonetics- shades of a TEFL  
> course in the 1970s!
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
> From: June Boschen
>  To: barbht at saqnet.co.uk ; senco_rik at ntlworld.com ;  
> maizie2004 at yahoo.co.uk ; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>  Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:34 PM
>  Subject: RE: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
>
>
>  -- and me too -- till I re read the Sharon's posting! June (who's  
> catching
>  up on reading mails cos it's half term !)
>
>  >From: "barbara" <barbht at saqnet.co.uk>
>  >To: "'senco_rik'" <senco_rik at ntlworld.com>,"'Maggie Downie'"
>  ><maizie2004 at yahoo.co.uk>,<senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>  >Subject: RE: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
>  >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:00:24 +0100
>  >
>  >'Does this mean I am the same sort of freak as Maggie ?  ;-)'  
> yes ! And me
>  >too ! Barbara ht
>  >
>  >-----Original Message-----
>  >From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
>  >[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of  
> senco_rik
>  >Sent: 12 October 2006 17:36
>  >To: 'Maggie Downie'; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>  >Subject: RE: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
>  >
>  >
>  >b/p have similar mouth movements, as  Sharon says.
>  >I agree that /b /d have quite different mouth movements.
>  >Does this mean I am the same sort of freak as Maggie ?  ;-)
>  >Rik
>  >
>  >
>  >-----Original Message-----
>  >From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
>  >[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of  
> Maggie Downie
>  >Sent: 12 October 2006 16:52
>  >To: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>  >Subject: Re: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
>  >
>  >Well, I've been sitting here saying /b/, /d/ repeatedly and
>  >the mouth movements are quite different.  Am I some sort of  
> freak?  To say
>  >/d/ the tongue touches the roof of the mouth and the lips are   
> parted from
>  >the start, whereas the tongue doesn't move at all in /b/ and the  
> lips start
>  >off closed and open as air is forced through them.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Maggie
>  >
>  >----- Original Message ----
>  >From: Sharon Fawcitt <sfawcitt at dsl.pipex.com>
>  >To: Olanys at aol.com; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>  >Sent: Thursday, 12 October, 2006 12:21:19 AM
>  >Subject: RE: [senco-forum] b d p confusion
>  >
>  >I agree.  It is important to find out what is causing the problem  
> first -
>  >see Aly's and Mary Kelly's posts -and help accordingly,  or you  
> will not be
>  >helping the child at all.
>  >b/p is commonly an auditory processing problem initially.
>  >The mouth movements are identical - feel for yourself when
>  >you announce each - one is voiced, one is not, but
>  >otherwise, identical mouth movement.
>  >Sharon F.
>  >
>  >-----Original Message-----
>  >From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
>  >[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of  
> Olanys at aol.com
>  >Sent: 11 October 2006 22:54
>  >To: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>  >Subject: Re: [senco-forum] b d confusion
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >"Sure, I  agree. I'm thinking that first you must be able to  
> perceive that
>  >there is a  difference between the phonemes though - if they  
> sound the same
>  >to you, you  won't know which kinaesthetic feel to associate with  
> which
>  >phoneme, and therefore confusion will continue, no matter how  
> clearly you
>  >can  distinguish between the graphemes. Don't you think so?"
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >I totally agree Mary. It is either, as I said in my original post  
> on this
>  >topic, an auditory processing issue (differentiating the  
> phonemes) or a
>  >visual processing issue (distinguishing between the graphemes)  
> and you need
>  >to know which one. It may even be both...
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Best wishes,
>  >Aly
>  >
>  >Chair Auditory  Processing Disorder in the UK/APDUK
>  >www.lacewingmultimedia.com/APD.htm
>  >www.apduk.org
>  >
>  >
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>  >
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