[senco-forum] Developinglistening skillsinsecondarypupils-Eddie'sCD

From my perspective that all goes without saying. To confirm or deny that

Dear Eddie

Auditory processing being the medical term for listening is not my
definition, but the definition of the UK Medical Research Council, so you
would b at odds with those who define medical terns for the UK and everyone
else except your self. So you must live in a world of your own definitions,
which must be confusing for everyone else with whom you wish to communicate.

The medicals definition you repudiate is outlined in the Medical Research
Council's APD pamphlet, linked to in my previous email. And may be if you
were research un begin to inwardly digest these issues them we may stop
having to remind you of such issues as APD which you continue to ignore. Or
do you have a selective reading difficulty in this area?

If you have your own private agenda to eliminate scientific research into
the underlying and sometimes medical causes of the problems that some may
have in learning to read, then that is your prerogative, but you should
preface any of your comments by saying that you decline to consider any
medical issues that may influence a child's ability to learn to read. And
that you are only willing to express and utilise the limits of your own
teaching experience fore your comments. This is a fairer interpretation of
your position.

In the USA it has now been recognised that there should be a
multi-disciplined research program into dyslexia, problems with reading,
writing, and spelling. The US Government has invested $6 million in an
initial grant to the Florida State University to start this Research
program, http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-07/fsu-ntt071106.php 

the UK government should do the same here, rather than rely on the many
definitions of dyslexia it uses provided by the self interest groups of
professional Fundraisers who now run such agencies as the BDA and Action
Dyslexia. Even UK university based research has moved on beyond these
meaningless nuero-babble definitions.
Best working model of dyslexia in the UK, at this moment in time.
The Institute for Neuro-Physiological Psychology INPP
http://www.inpp.org.uk/INPP_5_1_NDD_factors_dyslexia.php 

It would appear that your position has past its sell by date, and we need to
depend on rigorous scientific research peer reviewed etc as provided by the
Medical Research Council and others, and not the market research techniques
used by many who have a program or some educational product to promote or
sell.

Best wishes

Graeme
dolfrog
dolfrog at apduk.org
http://www.apduk.org
dolfrog at dolfrog.com
http://www.dolfrog.com
http://www.ldlinks.org.uk 

-----Original Message-----
From: Eddie Carron [mailto:eddiecarron at btconnect.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:18 AM
To: dolfrog
Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Developinglistening
skillsinsecondarypupils-Eddie'sCD

Graeme

I find the difficulty in communicating with Aly is that she always answers a

host of questions which I hadn't asked in the first place and simply ignores

those that I do ask. I suspect that her motive is simply to get the word APD

on the screen of often as possible. This is a harmful and not a helpful ploy

which is damaging the undoubted cause of APD. I know that many other, former

and current list contributors have expressed the same sentiment.

Let me say very clearly that I have never said that APD does not exist - it 
is simply lying or deliberately misconstruing my words, to say that I have 
done so. I know that all information reaching our brains comes to us via our

five senses and that the sensory input organs associated with each of the 
senses, very frequently operates imperfectly - some are born blind and some 
(like myseff) find their sight increasingly impaired. This applies to all of

our sensory inputs and this of course includes 'hearing' and therefore I 
take it for granted that some children either physically hear or perceive 
what they have 'heard' imperfectly - in some cases even, quite distortedly. 
>From my perspective that all goes without saying. To confirm or deny that 
fact would in my view, be plain silly. I have never and would never make 
such a stup assertion.

My many decades of teaching, researching and publishing in the area of 
literacy skills acquisition, lead me to completely reject your statement 
'Auditory Processing is the medical term for listening.' I have a very 
different interpretation of the word 'listening' and as long as we interpret

words so very differently, there could never be any point in our even 
attempting to communicate with each other. I only ever become involved in 
debate on the forum when the acquisition of literacy skills is the topic and

I will certainly never respond to any of Aly's contributions since her 
ignorance of the subject atleast equally my own ignornace of APD.

My best wishes

The 'twaddle' man.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "dolfrog" <dolfrog at tiscali.co.uk>
To: "'Eddie Carron'" <eddiecarron at btconnect.com>; "'Gillian Clayton'" 
<jillclayton at mac.com>; <Olanys at aol.com>
Cc: <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 10:32 PM
Subject: RE: [senco-forum] Developinglistening 
skillsinsecondarypupils-Eddie'sCD

> Dear Eddie
>
> You are obviously not aware of what APD is and how it affects those who 
> have
> APD.
> I would suggest you begin to research the following web pages before 
> making
> such ridiculous comments, obviously you have your own private motivation 
> for
> this. I am clinically diagnosed as having APD, as are two of my sons, and
> you are talking twaddle about their disability, and your statements are 
> pure
> disability discrimination to sell you point personal interests. You have
> even admitted in times past that you know nothing about APD, well you keep
> on proving it.
>
> Please research the following web page, if you want to learn about APD and
> improve your understanding of a recognised disability.
> ASHA (C)APD Technical Report 2005
>
http://www.asha.org/NR/rdonlyres/8404EA5B-8710-4636-B8C4-8A292E0761E0/0/v2TR
> _CAPD.pdf
> MRC Institute of Hearing Research
> http://www.ihr.mrc.ac.uk/products/leaflets.php#apd
>
> and regarding APD and attention
> http://www.homestead.com/agertner/HOMEPAGE.html
> and specifically
> http://www.homestead.com/agertner/page5.html
> also at
> http://apd.apduk.org/atten_mem_and_apd.htm
>
> I am clinically diagnosed as having APD and much of your last post is 
> total
> nonsense and only demonstrates you total lack of understanding of a
> disability that affects up to 10% of the population including those who
> suffer from Glue ear.
>
> And |I thought you were beginning to learn about these important issues.
>
> Best wishes
>
>
> Graeme
> dolfrog
> dolfrog at apduk.org
> http://www.apduk.org
> dolfrog at dolfrog.com
> http://www.dolfrog.com
> http://www.ldlinks.org.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eddie Carron [mailto:eddiecarron at btconnect.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 3:04 PM
> To: dolfrog; 'Gillian Clayton'; Olanys at aol.com
> Cc: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Developinglistening
> skillsinsecondarypupils-Eddie'sCD
>
> Graeme
>
> You write: 'Those who have poor listening skills or listening problems 
> have
> auditory
> processing problems.  Auditory Processing is the medical term for
> listening.'
>
> If a child has poor listening skills and is nevertheless able to follow a
> sequence of oral instructions then it is unlikely that APD is the problem.

> I
>
> think it much more likely that some degeee of attention deficit is 
> present.
> Attention seeking behaviour also frequently comes to the fore when
> instruction is oral.
>
> If a poor reader who appears to be unwilling or unable to listen for any
> significant period of time, undergoes a course of short daily experiences 
> of
>
> listening and his/her general literacy skills improve as a consequency of
> this - what does it matter what label is placed on their difficulty?  What
> should matter to a teacher is that their general literacy skills were
> boosted. Suppose this particular child took a test for APD which indicated

> a
>
> theorectical possibility that some degree of APD was present, are you 
> really
>
> saying that this child should not have been given this remedial course 
> which
>
> significantly improved their literacy skills?
>
> If this were my child and a school reported that they would not use an
> approach known to be successful because my child might have APD - I would
> sue them!
>
>
> Eddie C.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "dolfrog" <dolfrog at tiscali.co.uk>
> To: "'Eddie Carron'" <eddiecarron at btconnect.com>; "'Gillian Clayton'"
> <jillclayton at mac.com>; <Olanys at aol.com>
> Cc: <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 2:19 PM
> Subject: RE: [senco-forum] Developinglistening
> skillsinsecondarypupils-Eddie'sCD
>
>
>> Hi Eddie and all on this thread.
>>
>> Those who have poor listening skills or listening problems have auditory
>> processing problems.  Auditory Processing is the medical term for
>> listening.
>>
>> Dilys Treharne of the Sheffield University Human Communications Faculty
>> has
>> researched these issues for many years, and was instrumental in the first
>> Statement for a child with APD issues.
>>
>> You may find a summary of her Presentation "The Management of Auditory
>> processing Disorders" worth reading. Dilys outline many of the most 
>> useful
>> programs that may be found to be beneficial in this area including Toe by
>> Toe.
>>
>> The summary of Dilys' presentation can be found at various locations on
>> the
>> APDUK web site.
>> http://apd.apduk.org/managapd.htm
>> http://resources.apduk.org/manage_apd.htm
>> http://www.infosheets.apduk.org/manage_apd.htm
>> These pages have proved to be amongst the most popular from our web site
>> selection and average about 300 hits a month mainly from the USA , which
>> is
>> surprising as they are supposed to know more about APD than us here in 
>> the
>> UK.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Graeme
>> dolfrog
>> dolfrog at apduk.org
>> http://www.apduk.org
>> dolfrog at dolfrog.com
>> http://www.dolfrog.com
>> http://www.ldlinks.org.uk
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
>> [mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of Eddie Carron
>> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 11:14 PM
>> To: Gillian Clayton; Olanys at aol.com
>> Cc: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>> Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Developinglistening
>> skillsinsecondarypupils-Eddie'sCD
>>
>> Claire and ALy
>>
>> Someone started this thread with a question about responding to the needs
>> of
>>
>> children who lacked listening skills. I, and a couple of others, 
>> responded
>> with positive contributions which that initial enquirer appeared to find
>> useful. That would have ended the thread as far as I was concerned until
>> Aly
>>
>> intervened with a blanket condemnation of the use of approaches like mine
>> because they did not involve an examination of the possibilty that any of
>> these children had APD.
>>
>> There are many people who do not agree with me and who find my responses
>> irritating - that is their undoubted right. By the same token there are
>> many
>>
>> contributors whose views I find unbelievably crass and ill-informed. The
>> strategy I use in these cases is to press the delete button when I see
>> their
>>
>> names. I only open a tiny fraction of the mails I receive and I assume
>> that
>> others do the same. I believe there is a psychological label for people
>> who
>> are drawn to read the views of those whose view they find 'unacceptable'
>> or
>> distasteful. I dont know whether this label is helpful or not. My own
>> personal strategy is simply to delete them unread and it really works for
>> me.
>>
>> Aly describes my approach as 'hit and miss' with no way of knowing why
>> they
>> work.That does deserve a response and I will not shy away from providing
>> one. My approach is the very opposite of 'hit and miss' It is about very
>> precisely targeting of specific, identified deficit. If a poor reader is
>> unable to segment complex words into two or three simpler segemnts, I
>> teach
>> that child in a way that ensures that segmenting becomes a reflex 
>> reaction
>> to complex words, secure in the knowledge that his or her reading skills
>> wll
>>
>> inevitably and significantly improve when this very specific problem has
>> been resolved, And I know exacly why their reading has improved - nothing
>> hit or miss there!
>>
>> During the current hols, I have been working with a 6 year old child 
>> whose
>> reading was not taking off' His distraught parents had paid privately for
>> an
>>
>> EdPsych evaluation which provided only some very general advice - 'read 
>> to
>> the child every night - make reading fun - etc (which the parents had
>> always
>>
>> done anyway) I taught the parents how to use Keda Cowlings Toe by Toe on 
>> a
>> daily basis and provided a short, daily skills boosting programme of my
>> own
>> devising. I only visited them once a week. The parents are now ecstatic
>> about the child's reading after only four weeks. They know that he is on
>> the
>>
>> way to becoming a reader - certainly not because I gave his difficulty a
>> label but possibly because I declined to do so. I am happy to let other
>> apply labels.
>>
>> Listening is a skill. If a poor reader is deficient in that skill, I
>> believe
>>
>> it reasonable to assume that some degree of attention deficit is at least
>> a
>> contributing factor in the child's failure to make normal progress in
>> reading. If I am able to exercise the child's ability to maintain focus 
>> on
>> auditory information, that can only improve his or her chances of 
>> becoming
>
>> a
>>
>> literate individual - whatever label is applied to their deficit. No more
>> than that - but also no less than that!
>>
>> Eddie C.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Gillian Clayton" <jillclayton at mac.com>
>> To: <Olanys at aol.com>
>> Cc: <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Developinglistening
>> skillsinsecondarypupils-Eddie's CD
>>
>>
>>> Eddie,  Aly,  You are approaching the problems faced by early readers 
>>> in
>>> different ways.  Aly is looking for a first cause,  Eddie giving
>>> practice
>>
>>> in skills.  Surely,  we need people to do both.  You are  highly valued
>>> members of the forum - but this squabbling and snarling  will be losing
>>> Forum members.  We have politicians to tell us that we  are doing
>>> everything all wrong,  all the time,  whatever we do.  We  really don't
>>> need to start in on each other.
>>> I'm sorry if this comes over as pretentious and patronising.  Jill
>>> On 27 Aug 2006, at 20:59, Olanys at aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> But literacy skills deficits do not have general causes, they have 
>>>> very
>>>> specific causes and yours is a very hit and miss approach, which,  if 
>>>> it
>>>> works at
>>>> all you claim as success but have no idea why!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Aly
>>>>
>>>> Chair Auditory  Processing Disorder in the UK/APDUK
>>>> www.lacewingmultimedia.com/APD.htm
>>>> www.apduk.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> 