[SENco-forum] Handwriting

From: Mary Kelly <mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com>

That's still not addressing my point.  Why is the ability to write in
cursive with a real pen seen as being worth a grade higher than the ability
to print neatly with a biro?  We are not talking about pupils being graded
on their ability to inform their teachers and examiners what they know but
being graded on their penmanship or calligraphy or whatever we want to call
it.  And that is frankly an irrelevant skill for the 21st century.

Jamie

> From: Mary Kelly <mary.kelly4 at ntlworld.com>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:21:51 +0100
> To: 'Jamie Munro' <jmunro at djsn.co.uk>, 'Maggie Downie'
> <maizie2004 at yahoo.co.uk>, <jeanld at fish.co.uk>
> Cc: 'Becta Senco' <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
> Subject: RE: [SENco-forum] Handwriting
> 
> But, surely, the single most "important" reason pupils need to write is to
> inform their teachers and examiners what they know, because most schools are
> simply not equipped with enough computers and printers for them to do this
> using keyboards?
> Mary
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
> [mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of Jamie Munro
> Sent: 24 July 2007 08:17
> To: Maggie Downie; jeanld at fish.co.uk
> Cc: Becta Senco
> Subject: Re: [SENco-forum] Handwriting
> 
> I¹d like to just bring people back to what originally incensed me to start
> this discussion:  That an examination essay written in flowing cursive with
> a ³real² pen is worth a grade higher than one printed neatly with a biro.
> That, lets call in penmanship rather than writing, is a valuable skill
> needed in the 21st century and we should use valuable school time to teach
> pupils this skill.  I¹ve still yet to see any argument in favour of this.
> 
> People have given plenty of examples of where handwriting may be needed but
> in every case we are talking very short pieces of writing and being able to
> print neatly would be enough.  Yes, I do handwrite birthday cards to people
> but no one has ever sent me one back and said I loved them less because I
> wrote in print with a biro and not used cursive with an ink pen.
> 
> But Maggie, most of us are ³welded to electronic gizmos every minute of the
> day².  Why is there something wrong with that?  Why is using a pen and paper
> some how more worthy than writing electronically.  I never go anywhere
> without my mobile phone for example, and rummaging through my pockets I¹ve
> pulled out a pen drive and my Ipod.  This is the world we live in and this
> is the world that the current generation in school feel comfortable with.  I
> see them sending notes to each other all the time, just they use texting and
> not  notepads and pens.  Jot down an address and phone number?  I¹d put it
> straight into my phone where I could guarantee I¹d find it again.  Put a
> note through someone's door?  I¹d probably call them and leave a message on
> their answer phone.  Write down an order for food in a restaurant?  Printing
> would probably be less confusing than cursive but I see many restaurants
> moving to electronic ordering.  In a Tapas bar last week the staff had Palm
> PDAs and entered your orders in them, and when ordering food at my local
> pub, the staff used the electronic till to enter the order.
> 
> Of course there is the irony that we are having this discussion via an
> electronic medium.  We¹re not sending each other little notes written in
> flowing cursive on Basildon Bond paper.
> 
> Jamie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Maggie Downie <maizie2004 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:01:18 +0100 (BST)
> To: Jamie Munro <jmunro at djsn.co.uk>, <jeanld at fish.co.uk>
> Cc: Becta Senco <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [SENco-forum] Handwriting
> 
> Well, I would feel that I was missing a vital skill if I couldn't
> communicate clearly in handwriting as well as by keyboarding.  What are we
> trying to achieve?  children who can't do a simple calculation without a
> calculator and can't write a message with a pen and paper.  Isn't this a
> form of helplessness?
> 
> How are you going to write special wishes inside a birthday card, drop a
> note in someone's letterbox if you called to see them and they weren't in,
> jot down an address or a phone number, write something highly confidential
> that couldn't possibly be traced once the document had been destroyed....
> 
> C'mon, we're not welded to electronic gizmos every minute of the day.
> 
> Maggie
> 
> Jamie Munro <jmunro at djsn.co.uk> wrote:
>>  But that's my point.  We teach children to produce neat cursive
> handwriting
>> for those who set public examinations.  Not because it has a use in the
>> workplace, not because of any educational benefit, but what seems to be a
>> purely arbitrary reason.
>> 
>> As for filling in forms, I never come across one that doesn't insist that
> it
>> is written in block capitals or print and these are types of hand writing
>> that are being actively discouraged because "print essays while equal in
>> speed are likely to be marked down by one exam grade."
>> 
>> The faces of struggling writers show the same triumph when they have
>> produced a piece of work using a computer too.
>> 
>> I certainly don't feel like I have lost a valuable piece of myself by not
>> doing hand writing.
>> 
>> Jamie
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> From: 
>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:24:55 +0100 (BST)
>>>> To: Jamie Munro
>>>> Cc: , Sharon Fawcitt , Becta Senco
>>>> 
>>>> Subject: Re: [SENco-forum] Handwriting
>>>> 
>>>> As far as I am aware, public exams, such as GCSE and A Levels still
> have
>>>> to be handwritten and some jobs still expect that application forms
> will
>>>> be filled in by hand.  In both instances, it is necessary for those
>>>> reading the scripts to be able to read legible handwriting.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, most of the children that I have taught who do have difficulties
>>>> with their handwriting really do want to improve it.  Talking to them
>>>> about using IT etc is all very well, but their faces show their true
>>>> feelings when they have produced a piece of well-formed, legible
> writing.
>>>> Perhaps it is because our writing is something intensely personal,
> created
>>>> by us and unlike anyone else's.  Having said that, mine and my
> daughter's
>>>> handwriting is so alike that it's spooky and my sister's can also be
>>>> mistaken for mine at a glance!
>>>> 
>>>> Regards
>>>> 
>>>> Jean
>>>> 
>>>> S Wales
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  I feel I've wandered into a discussion from a previous century.  It's
> 2007
>>>>>> not 1897 (or even 1987), why are we placing so much emphasis on
>>>>>> handwriting
>>>>>> when a lot of us not in school simply don't do it at all any more.
> The
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> handwriting I ever do is writing cheques, and chip and pin have seen
> to
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> of that.  Oh, maybe the odd shopping list that only I will read.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm communicating this by email, over the weekend I communicated with
> my
>>>>>> local council via their web site, wrote a letter to my local
> newspaper
>>>> via
>>>>>> email.  In meetings I take notes using a laptop, I write appointments
> in
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> electronic diary on my mobile phone/PDA.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> An essay in flowing cursive deserves an exam grade better than one in
>>>>>> print?
>>>>>> Bizarre and grossly unfair!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From: 
>>>>>>>> Reply-To: 
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:30:33 +0100
>>>>>>>> To: Sharon Fawcitt , Becta Senco
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [SENco-forum] Handwriting
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Those who are adamant they do not need to change - style or speed
> are
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> most resistant so it has to be student choice.  I tell them the
> facts -
>>>>>>>> print essays while equal in speed are likely to be marked down by
> one
>>>>>>>> exam
>>>>>>>> grade.  Untidy writing (2 comparable essays) was marked down 2
> grades C
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> opposed to A.  My  11 year olds are not to worried by this as
> GCSE's
> are
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> for another 5 years.  As teachers we should be really worried.  For
> the
>>>>>>>> students I am dealing with this is going to be the difference
> between a
>>>>>>>> GSCE
>>>>>>>> pass and fail and this needs addressing.  The biggest question for
> me
> is
>>>>>>>> when is the best time to tackle the current handwriting problems -
>>>>>>>> Reception
>>>>>>>> or  KS2.  Secondary students are going to have acquired habits that
> are
>>>>>>>> really hard to influence positively.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>>> This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
>>>>>> http://www.netintelligence.com/email
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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