[senco-forum] exclude or not?

Hi
  As the writer of the original post, I'd like to respond to what you have added.
  I don't feel that it is appropriate to add any more detail about the incident I asked about.  I just want to say that this young man is in Year 11, he is leaving school at the end of the year and will be going to college.  We have been trying to work on his understanding of this for years.  Our concern is that WE do have knowledge of and understanding of his ASD.  We do make allowances.  But, as Barbara said, he has to live in our world.  If he speaks like this about the staff in a pub, a restaurant, a shop, on a bus, a train, at an airport etc etc, he is going to be evicted, barred or banned.  If he responds with anger and violence he is going to end up in trouble because people who don't know him won't be able to manage the situation with the skill of my school staff.  Believe me, exclusion is a last resort after a long history of minor measures.
  I don't see this situation as demonstrating 'contempt for people with ASD'.  I do think many people with ASD are as well served by their schools as it is possible to be.  Do you expect them to wear an 'I have ASD' lable in the 'real world'.
  I agree with you that the incidents you relate are unacceptable.  For a teacher not to challange the use of the word 'retard' is unaccpetable whoever it refers to.

  Amanda
  Secondary SENCO
  Cornwall
Astryngia <astryngia at googlemail.com> wrote:
  Without knowing the details, and without knowing how his ASD manifests in
detail, it's difficult to give anything other than a personal opinion, but
If he made a comment *about* someone but not to their face, it is likely
that he spoke his mind in the wrong context. That's very difficult for
someone with an ASD to comprehend. People with an ASD really do not 'get'
the 'rules' of the social side of things - they are so complex, never the
same.

The contempt shown in your post for people with an ASD is very sad. They
can be a total pain in the derriere and very difficult to communicate with -
even when you think you've succeeded in communicating, you may not have -
but the confusion they live with is very real. And it's very easy for us
non-ASD to misinterpret their motivations and facial expressions.

But I've never come across exclusion as a remedy for speaking your mind.

People get offended by a four year old stating loudly 'look at that fat lady
with the big nose'. But who has the problem here? The embarrassed mother,
the 'target' of the comment or the four year old? That's an ethical issue,
isn't it. There is no 'right or wrong' but I'd like to persuade you that
it's up to the adults to be 'adult' and handle the embarrassment rather than
punish the child.

Furthermore, a four year old will learn from that incident, and as time goes
on, in ways someone with an ASD can't - because he doesn't have the
biological capacity to do so. He doesn't see the expression in your eye or
the raised eyebrow or the rest of your body language.

It's unbelieveable isn't it! But that's OUR problem to grapple with - to
open our minds and believe the unbelievable. People with an ASD just are
different and we ask an awful lot from them to adapt to *our* norms. But we
do ask them to adapt to our norms. And when they fail we offer them our
contempt. If you don't truly understand what makes up the difference, it's
hard to respect it. But, for example, would you speak of someone who is
physically disabled in the same way about their disability?

You say that he'll probably try to justify his comment as no worse than Joe
Bloggs'. It reminded me of an incident which confused one young man with an
ASD. I've not been able to explain the difference to him. Perhaps you
can. He unthinkingly said 'word removed becasue it blocked the posting' because, sitting at his desk, he'd put his
foot on his friend's jam tarts, made that morning in cookery and stuffed
under the desk in a plastic bag, out of the way. He had simply reacted to
the situation. (Dare I say that I think I might have said the same thing
myself!) The teacher was appalled, called him out to the front and wrote
the incident in his homework book to report it to the parents. A few
moments later, 'one of the rowdy boys' told the teacher she looked like a
retard and the whole class, including the teacher, burst out laughing. The
young man in question is bewildered.

How do you explain the difference??

I have to wonder, if the two incidents had been transposed, whether the
reactions of the teacher would have been the same? Or whether the
expressionless child with an ASD just wouldn't communicate his words in a
way which would enable him to 'get away with it' in either situation???

Just some thoughts...

On 26/03/07, barbara wrote:
>
> The lad will presumably go on to live in the real world - he therefore
> needs to learn whilst in the protected world of school the social
> conventions and skills needed for functioning in real life. This includes
> what sort of comments are acceptable in public ( having previously learnt
> the difference between private and public ). And also the likely reaction
> when the 'inappropriate' comment is made
> Exclusion is not discriminatory - you could view it as an act of
> inclusion!!
> And will be expected by all the other kids who heard it.
> Although no doubt we will be told that we have to explain carefully to
> this
> lad and accept his difference and not react with a punishment, in order to
> make an offensive comment ( from my experience of similar kids ) he had
> thought it out ( and probably chosen his audience - oone of mine used to
> but
> with little sense of timing his comments would fall flatish )and
> 'academically' may know the expected punishment although will no doubt
> attempt to justify the comment which was no worse than Joe Bloggs ' .
> Barbara ht
> -----Original Message-----
> From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
> [mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of Amanda
> Sent: 26 March 2007 16:15
> To: senco-forum
> Subject: [senco-forum] exclude or not?
>
>
> Hello everyone
> Is it discrimination to exclude a boy with a diagnosis of ASD when he is
> offensive about a member of staff in public?
> I don't want to give the details of what he did but it was the sort of
> comment which would get you banned (or punched!) if you made it in the
> outside world.
>
> Amanda
> Secondary SENCO
> Cornwall
>
>
> Amanda
> Secondary SENCO
> Cornwall
>
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Amanda
Secondary SENCO
Cornwall