[senco-forum] Re: Maths and dyslexia

senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk

Thanks Amanda for the info on the JCQ requirements.
And a few thoughts on the dyslexia/dyscalculia debate.
Just as a typical difficulty with dyslexia is learning symbol to sound, or
concept correspondences, youngsters can have difficulty learning or
producing number names. I have met children who could say a particular
number name eg 8 without counting from 1. The complications multipy when
they have to apply place-value understanding; 'teen' numbers have been
mentioned as having 'irregular' names, and longer numbers have the added
difficulty of working memory and memory storage, similar to long words.
More difficulty comes from having verbalise numbers in sentence length
phrases - eg 389605, which requires 11 words -  including a knowledge of
how to interpret the 0.   This is more a difficulty of dyslexia than
dyscalculia, but the effects are such that the distinction is blurred and
not easy to identify. Many of us depend on verbalising to work out number
(and other) calculations. The most extreme example I have met was a
dyslexic student who could not work out simple addition and subtraction
because of a lack of understanding about place-value, but even more,
because she did not know how to say numbers. When we sorted that out, she
said, 'How could I do (sums) when I didn't know what they (the numbers)
were called?'
They most immediate way to help is to give more time, (not pounce on them
to give immediate answers) and importantly to use concrete aids to help
understanding.
Ann

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>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. touch typing programmes (BarbaraALooney at aol.com)
>   2. Re: touch typing programmes (Sheridan)
>   3. FW:  (Alex Hammerstein)
>   4. Re: dyscalculia (dolina.patterson)
>   5. RE: Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed (Linda Nevin-Drummond)
>   6. RE: Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed (Alex Hammerstein)
>   7. Re: Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed (annie williams)
>   8. Re: Re: dyscalculia (middleroom at blueyonder.co.uk)
>   9. Re: Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed (LUCY GRIMME)
>  10. RE: Re: dyscalculia (Ruth Newbury)
>  11. RE: Re: dyscalculia (SEN at tringham.net)
>  12. SENCo Conference (Ruth Newbury)
>  13. Re: Re: dyscalculia or dyslexia (dolina.patterson)
>  14. some Friday funnies (Janet Barlow)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:12:59 EDT
>From: BarbaraALooney at aol.com
>Subject: [senco-forum] touch typing programmes
>To: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>Message-ID: <bea.fd8cd47.336b55fb at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>Dear All,
>
>Has anyone got a favourite touch typing programme suitable for boys age
>11-14, low side of average literacy, poorish concentration?
>
>Bset wishes
>
>Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:31:34 +0100
>From: "Sheridan" <sheridan.sharp1 at btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: [senco-forum] touch typing programmes
>To: <BarbaraALooney at aol.com>,	<senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <002001c78d98$22f02f60$0900a8c0 at Study>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=original
>
>Try this free downloadable one. The kids love it.
>
>http://www.kidwaresoftware.com/kidtype.htm
>It's basic but easy to use.
>If you want to purchase one try Touch Type by Iota software, It costs about
>£35 for single user. I've used it very successfully with dyslexic pupils and
>moderate learning difficulty pupils.
>
>http://www.iota.co.uk/touchtype/
>
>Cheers
>Sheridan
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:37:04 +0100
>From: "Alex Hammerstein" <aph at misnet.co.uk>
>Subject: [senco-forum] FW:
>To: <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <008901c78d98$e6d62dd0$1201a8c0 at springfield.office>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>I'm sure we have all seen this, but in case - here's an early Friday funny
>
>
>
>Alex
>
>
>
>
>
>European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be
>the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was
>the other possibility.
>
>
>
>
>
>As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English
>spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in
>plan that would become known as "Euro-English".
>
>
>
>
>
>In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make
>the sivil servants jump with joy.
>
>
>
>
>
>The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up
>konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
>
>
>
>
>
>There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the
>troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like
>fotograf 20% shorter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
>reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
>
>
>
>
>
>Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always
>ben a deterent to akurate speling.
>
>
>
>
>
>Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is
>disgrasful and it should go away.
>
>
>
>
>
>By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with
>"z" and "w"with "v".
>
>
>
>
>
>During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou"
>and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.
>
>
>
>
>
>Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu
>understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.
>
>
>
>
>
>Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze
>forst plas.
>
>
>
>
>
>If zis mad you smil, pleas pas on to oza pepl.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 17:47:35 +0100
>From: "dolina.patterson" <dolina.patterson at btinternet.com>
>Subject: [senco-forum] Re: dyscalculia
>To: <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <004301c78da2$c1058010$0401a8c0 at SN040143620608>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=response
>
>Thanks all for suggestions.  I will follow them up.  I just wish I could
>work with her myself as she is keen to improve and has great parental
>support, not like a few others I have to teach who couldn't care less and
>make everyone's life misery.  Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
>
>Dolina
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 18:06:25 +0100
>From: "Linda Nevin-Drummond" <linda at mirin-361.eclipse.co.uk>
>Subject: RE: [SENco-forum] Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed
>To: "'Becta Senco'" <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <000001c78da5$6248b1c0$0500a8c0 at T60>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="windows-1250"
>
>I have managed to break my ankle bone and now am in a cast. I will take
>sympathy for granted so you don't need to send flowers!! But I was wondering
>if other people have some advice especially about an enforced absence from
>work.(I'm a secondary school SENCO) Did you "work from home" via emails
>/phone calls etc? About six years ago I had a lot of useful practical advice
>from senco forum when I broke my right wrist. At least this time I can type!
>I expect to spend a lot of time on the computer. I have been home four days
>now and am getting fed up already!
>Linda
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007
>14:16
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 19:50:27 +0100
>From: "Alex Hammerstein" <aph at misnet.co.uk>
>Subject: RE: [SENco-forum] Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed
>To: "'Linda Nevin-Drummond'" <linda at mirin-361.eclipse.co.uk>,	"'Becta
>	Senco'" <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <003501c78db3$eb07fc60$c117f520$@co.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi Linda
>
>Sorry to hear about your ankle.  Our digital media manager (aka my daughter)
>suffered a triple spiral fracture of her shin bone whilst skiing on 6th
>March.  She had a 300mm plate put in and luckily no cast.  However after
>about 10 days, we sorted her out with a VPN computer access to our server at
>work and she was able to do her work from home.  She started off at about 2
>hours a day but within 2 weeks was up to about 70%.  She returned on
>crutches this week.
>
>We have a digital telephone system, so we simply routed calls on her DDI to
>our home number and added the phone number as an extension.  Worked a
>treat!!
>
>Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but its quite easy to carry on working
>from home these days :):):)
>
>Alex
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
>[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of Linda
>Nevin-Drummond
>Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 6:06 PM
>To: 'Becta Senco'
>Subject: RE: [SENco-forum] Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed
>
>I have managed to break my ankle bone and now am in a cast. I will take
>sympathy for granted so you don't need to send flowers!! But I was wondering
>if other people have some advice especially about an enforced absence from
>work.(I'm a secondary school SENCO) Did you "work from home" via emails
>/phone calls etc? About six years ago I had a lot of useful practical advice
>from senco forum when I broke my right wrist. At least this time I can type!
>I expect to spend a lot of time on the computer. I have been home four days
>now and am getting fed up already!
>Linda
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007
>14:16
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:14:52 +0100
>From: "annie williams" <annie41 at blueyonder.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [SENco-forum] Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed
>To: "Linda Nevin-Drummond" <linda at mirin-361.eclipse.co.uk>,	"'Becta
>	Senco'" <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <000d01c78db7$5467aa40$5dcd2c52 at williams>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250";
>	reply-type=original
>
>I am a primary senco and broke my ankle at the end of my summer hols in late
>August in Norway (rescued by helicopter - very exciting and 3 days in
>wonderful Norwegian hospital0 NB I also sprained other ankle.
>I hired a wheelchair and school moved my office downstairs near disabled
>loo. On the few days I took off I had no end of phone callsand
>......................... I was unable to teach, take groups etc and relied
>on husband and colleagues to transport me.
>
>annie
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Linda Nevin-Drummond" <linda at mirin-361.eclipse.co.uk>
>To: "'Becta Senco'" <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 6:06 PM
>Subject: RE: [SENco-forum] Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed
>
>
>>I have managed to break my ankle bone and now am in a cast. I will take
>> sympathy for granted so you don't need to send flowers!! But I was
>> wondering
>> if other people have some advice especially about an enforced absence from
>> work.(I'm a secondary school SENCO) Did you "work from home" via emails
>> /phone calls etc? About six years ago I had a lot of useful practical
>> advice
>> from senco forum when I broke my right wrist. At least this time I can
>> type!
>> I expect to spend a lot of time on the computer. I have been home four
>> days
>> now and am getting fed up already!
>> Linda
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007
>> 14:16
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:27:50 +0100 (BST)
>From: middleroom at blueyonder.co.uk
>Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Re: dyscalculia
>To: "dolina.patterson" <dolina.patterson at btinternet.com>
>Cc: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>Message-ID:
>	<1254.82.32.156.82.1178220470.V0MUQ2BPTEB8Qw==.squirrel at 82.32.156.82>
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>We mustn't forget that 'a difficulty with maths' need not necessarily mean
>dyscalculia.
>
>It is very common for dyslexia to cause a difficulty with maths due to the
>language of maths; teaching approach; impact of initial
>confusion/anxiety/failure creating further difficculties etc.
>
>I would advise the maths teacher to consider and investigate this pupil's
>grasp and confidence with the language of maths ...
>
>'Multiply, x, lots of, times' can be very confusing for a dyslexic
>struggling with terminology and memory storage/recall. We have right
>angles ... where are the left angles or wrong angles? We write '37' in a
>manner that matches the way we say the word ... so why isn't '17' written
>'71'? Multiplication tables depend heavily on audio memory and can cause
>great difficulties for dylexic students. Maths is full of squiggles such
>as % which then have to be related to an appropriate word, concept and
>understanding.
>
>The 'numeracy hour' teaching approach is not good for those with memory
>and language processing weaknesses ... they live in overload and rarely
>get the chance to explore and consolidate topics at the pace they need
>before new approaches or topics bombard them.
>
>The impact of failure in maths is huge. It can create enormous barriers to
>the ability to calmly examine, decode and interpret numerical tasks;
>reduces experience and confidence; leads to maths anxiety that turns the
>brain into jelly.
>
>I also, personally, think that we do not do enough to really instill an
>understanding of units. If you calculated the length of a table and the
>answer came out as 2 miles, you would know immediately that they was a
>mistake somewhere. Do children (or adults) have the depth of knowledge
>concerning litres and grams etc ... they might know 2litres is a bottle of
>coke, but do they know the weight of 10grams, or volume of a bath?
>
>The meaning of the = sign is also one I have found struggling dyslexic
>pupils often misunderstand. They equate it to mean 'and then, at the end
>of the story, we get to an answer'. This understanding creates havoc when
>they try to understand algebra, whereas the meaning of = as 'the same as'
>relieves their confusion. This demonstrates just one example of how the
>difficult decoding symbolic language can lead to a fixed misunderstanding
>that a maths teacher may not be aware of.
>
>Often, specialist teachers are not aware of 'the simple difficulties'
>being faced by students. Some never had any difficulties themselves when
>learning maths and therefore do not recognise subtle confusions that might
>be occurring. Helping the maths teacher to recognise maths from the
>dyslexic's perspective can help them design teaching experiences that
>access learning and discovery rather than confusion and anxiety.
>
>Interestingly, countries in which mothers play numeracy games with their
>children have higher numeracy levels than those that play literacy games.
>In the courses for parents of dyslexic children I am running throughout
>Cornwall at the moment, we are giving out sets of dice including
>multisided ones (from Warhammer game shops) and accompanying dice games to
>play.
>
>The difference the parents are finding between the child tackiling maths
>homework versus playing a dice game that explores similar topics,
>demonstrates a difference in a learning approach ... the sooner we get
>dartboard games as a national sport, the better!!
>
>'Dyscalculia' (as opposed to dyslexia causing a difficulty with school
>maths) is relatively rare. If I told you that chair plus table equals
>ceiling, and then asked you what ceiling take away table was, you would
>probably tell me 'chair'. You have worked this out through logic, not by
>understanding the qualities of 'chair' 'table' or 'ceiling' that qualified
>the equation. Similarly, dyscalculics can learn some maths through rote
>learning, but not understand underlying dimensions of number. They do not
>identify that '16' is made up of 4x4; 20-4; 10+6 etc. As a result, the
>approaches used to teach maths to someone with dyscalculia are very
>different to those who are dyslexic.
>
>Finally, many dyslexics are inherently good at maths. I read somewhere
>that 75% of the dyslexic population are naturally good at maths compared
>with 25% of the non-dylsexic population. However, whilst the dyslexic
>might be able to quickly produce a correct answer, they often are unable
>to break their calculating processes down into identifiable steps ... not
>an approach we encourage in school. By GCSE, the above statistics are not
>in evidence, supporting the suggestion that the way we teach maths in
>schools positively disadvantages the dyslexic learner.
>
>Best wishes,
>Sally (Plymouth-soon-to-be-St-Austell)
>
>> Thanks all for suggestions.  I will follow them up.  I just wish I could
>> work with her myself as she is keen to improve and has great parental
>> support, not like a few others I have to teach who couldn't care less and
>> make everyone's life misery.  Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
>>
>> Dolina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:50:26 +0100 (BST)
>From: LUCY GRIMME <lucy.grimme at btopenworld.com>
>Subject: Re: [SENco-forum] Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed
>To: annie williams <annie41 at blueyonder.co.uk>,	Linda Nevin-Drummond
>	<linda at mirin-361.eclipse.co.uk>,	'Becta Senco'
>	<senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <288623.50022.qm at web86404.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Under Union guidelines if you are off sick, you cannot be expected to
>undertake any work at all.  Whilst training for union responsibilities I
>played devil's advocate by talking about the person off with a broken leg
>who was expected to do marking, planning, administration etc. The answer
>was a definite no.  If you are off sick, cover should be provided for your
>job.
>
>annie williams <annie41 at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:  I am a primary senco and
>broke my ankle at the end of my summer hols in late
>August in Norway (rescued by helicopter - very exciting and 3 days in
>wonderful Norwegian hospital0 NB I also sprained other ankle.
>I hired a wheelchair and school moved my office downstairs near disabled
>loo. On the few days I took off I had no end of phone callsand
>......................... I was unable to teach, take groups etc and relied
>on husband and colleagues to transport me.
>
>annie
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Linda Nevin-Drummond"
>
>To: "'Becta Senco'"
>Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 6:06 PM
>Subject: RE: [SENco-forum] Broken leg-sympathy and advice needed
>
>
>>I have managed to break my ankle bone and now am in a cast. I will take
>> sympathy for granted so you don't need to send flowers!! But I was
>> wondering
>> if other people have some advice especially about an enforced absence from
>> work.(I'm a secondary school SENCO) Did you "work from home" via emails
>> /phone calls etc? About six years ago I had a lot of useful practical
>> advice
>> from senco forum when I broke my right wrist. At least this time I can
>> type!
>> I expect to spend a lot of time on the computer. I have been home four
>> days
>> now and am getting fed up already!
>> Linda
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007
>> 14:16
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:05:14 +0100
>From: "Ruth Newbury" <rmnewbury at ntlworld.com>
>Subject: RE: [senco-forum] Re: dyscalculia
>To: <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <000301c78dc6$bfd33740$3f79a5c0$@com>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>And oh how true.
>
>As dyscalculia became a "fashionable label" - the maths department looked
>seriously at their poorest performing students - and the unexpectedly poor
>performers.
>
>And we discovered a lot more dyslexic students than we thought we had!
>
>Regards
>
>Ruth
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
>[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of
>middleroom at blueyonder.co.uk
>Sent: 03 May 2007 20:28
>To: dolina.patterson
>Cc: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Re: dyscalculia
>
>
>We mustn't forget that 'a difficulty with maths' need not necessarily mean
>dyscalculia.
>
>It is very common for dyslexia to cause a difficulty with maths due to the
>language of maths; teaching approach; impact of initial
>confusion/anxiety/failure creating further difficculties etc.
>
>I would advise the maths teacher to consider and investigate this pupil's
>grasp and confidence with the language of maths ...
>
>'Multiply, x, lots of, times' can be very confusing for a dyslexic
>struggling with terminology and memory storage/recall. We have right
>angles ... where are the left angles or wrong angles? We write '37' in a
>manner that matches the way we say the word ... so why isn't '17' written
>'71'? Multiplication tables depend heavily on audio memory and can cause
>great difficulties for dylexic students. Maths is full of squiggles such
>as % which then have to be related to an appropriate word, concept and
>understanding.
>
>The 'numeracy hour' teaching approach is not good for those with memory
>and language processing weaknesses ... they live in overload and rarely
>get the chance to explore and consolidate topics at the pace they need
>before new approaches or topics bombard them.
>
>The impact of failure in maths is huge. It can create enormous barriers to
>the ability to calmly examine, decode and interpret numerical tasks;
>reduces experience and confidence; leads to maths anxiety that turns the
>brain into jelly.
>
>I also, personally, think that we do not do enough to really instill an
>understanding of units. If you calculated the length of a table and the
>answer came out as 2 miles, you would know immediately that they was a
>mistake somewhere. Do children (or adults) have the depth of knowledge
>concerning litres and grams etc ... they might know 2litres is a bottle of
>coke, but do they know the weight of 10grams, or volume of a bath?
>
>The meaning of the = sign is also one I have found struggling dyslexic
>pupils often misunderstand. They equate it to mean 'and then, at the end
>of the story, we get to an answer'. This understanding creates havoc when
>they try to understand algebra, whereas the meaning of = as 'the same as'
>relieves their confusion. This demonstrates just one example of how the
>difficult decoding symbolic language can lead to a fixed misunderstanding
>that a maths teacher may not be aware of.
>
>Often, specialist teachers are not aware of 'the simple difficulties'
>being faced by students. Some never had any difficulties themselves when
>learning maths and therefore do not recognise subtle confusions that might
>be occurring. Helping the maths teacher to recognise maths from the
>dyslexic's perspective can help them design teaching experiences that
>access learning and discovery rather than confusion and anxiety.
>
>Interestingly, countries in which mothers play numeracy games with their
>children have higher numeracy levels than those that play literacy games.
>In the courses for parents of dyslexic children I am running throughout
>Cornwall at the moment, we are giving out sets of dice including
>multisided ones (from Warhammer game shops) and accompanying dice games to
>play.
>
>The difference the parents are finding between the child tackiling maths
>homework versus playing a dice game that explores similar topics,
>demonstrates a difference in a learning approach ... the sooner we get
>dartboard games as a national sport, the better!!
>
>'Dyscalculia' (as opposed to dyslexia causing a difficulty with school
>maths) is relatively rare. If I told you that chair plus table equals
>ceiling, and then asked you what ceiling take away table was, you would
>probably tell me 'chair'. You have worked this out through logic, not by
>understanding the qualities of 'chair' 'table' or 'ceiling' that qualified
>the equation. Similarly, dyscalculics can learn some maths through rote
>learning, but not understand underlying dimensions of number. They do not
>identify that '16' is made up of 4x4; 20-4; 10+6 etc. As a result, the
>approaches used to teach maths to someone with dyscalculia are very
>different to those who are dyslexic.
>
>Finally, many dyslexics are inherently good at maths. I read somewhere
>that 75% of the dyslexic population are naturally good at maths compared
>with 25% of the non-dylsexic population. However, whilst the dyslexic
>might be able to quickly produce a correct answer, they often are unable
>to break their calculating processes down into identifiable steps ... not
>an approach we encourage in school. By GCSE, the above statistics are not
>in evidence, supporting the suggestion that the way we teach maths in
>schools positively disadvantages the dyslexic learner.
>
>Best wishes,
>Sally (Plymouth-soon-to-be-St-Austell)
>
>> Thanks all for suggestions.  I will follow them up.  I just wish I could
>> work with her myself as she is keen to improve and has great parental
>> support, not like a few others I have to teach who couldn't care less and
>> make everyone's life misery.  Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
>>
>> Dolina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:20:49 +0100
>From: <SEN at tringham.net>
>Subject: RE: [SENco-forum] Re: dyscalculia
>To: <middleroom at blueyonder.co.uk>,	"Becta Senco"
>	<senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <FJEDIFGHLAFJDOLCCFOIKEEOEAAA.SEN at tringham.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>And you couldn't have posted this before I had to research my Numeracy
>Assignment!
>
>Brian Butterworth is reckoning dyscalculia occurrence as similar to the
>occurrence to dyslexia, but as was stated not necessarily together.  One can
>have either or both!
>
>My daughter has maths difficulties to do with dyslexia - reversed numbers
>2/5, misreading do/do not (and most listed on the last post) and dyscalculia
>a real inability to deal with number - no idea of counting on let alone
>counting back, poor number bonding 1-10 as well a severe short term memory
>problem affecting all sorts.
>
>GCSE's soon and it will be interesting to see how she gets on!
>Sharon
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
>[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk]On Behalf Of
>middleroom at blueyonder.co.uk
>Sent: 03 May 2007 20:28
>To: dolina.patterson
>Cc: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Re: dyscalculia
>
>
>
>We mustn't forget that 'a difficulty with maths' need not necessarily mean
>dyscalculia.
>
>It is very common for dyslexia to cause a difficulty with maths due to the
>language of maths; teaching approach; impact of initial
>confusion/anxiety/failure creating further difficculties etc.
>
>I would advise the maths teacher to consider and investigate this pupil's
>grasp and confidence with the language of maths ...
>
>'Multiply, x, lots of, times' can be very confusing for a dyslexic
>struggling with terminology and memory storage/recall. We have right
>angles ... where are the left angles or wrong angles? We write '37' in a
>manner that matches the way we say the word ... so why isn't '17' written
>'71'? Multiplication tables depend heavily on audio memory and can cause
>great difficulties for dylexic students. Maths is full of squiggles such
>as % which then have to be related to an appropriate word, concept and
>understanding.
>
>The 'numeracy hour' teaching approach is not good for those with memory
>and language processing weaknesses ... they live in overload and rarely
>get the chance to explore and consolidate topics at the pace they need
>before new approaches or topics bombard them.
>
>The impact of failure in maths is huge. It can create enormous barriers to
>the ability to calmly examine, decode and interpret numerical tasks;
>reduces experience and confidence; leads to maths anxiety that turns the
>brain into jelly.
>
>I also, personally, think that we do not do enough to really instill an
>understanding of units. If you calculated the length of a table and the
>answer came out as 2 miles, you would know immediately that they was a
>mistake somewhere. Do children (or adults) have the depth of knowledge
>concerning litres and grams etc ... they might know 2litres is a bottle of
>coke, but do they know the weight of 10grams, or volume of a bath?
>
>The meaning of the = sign is also one I have found struggling dyslexic
>pupils often misunderstand. They equate it to mean 'and then, at the end
>of the story, we get to an answer'. This understanding creates havoc when
>they try to understand algebra, whereas the meaning of = as 'the same as'
>relieves their confusion. This demonstrates just one example of how the
>difficult decoding symbolic language can lead to a fixed misunderstanding
>that a maths teacher may not be aware of.
>
>Often, specialist teachers are not aware of 'the simple difficulties'
>being faced by students. Some never had any difficulties themselves when
>learning maths and therefore do not recognise subtle confusions that might
>be occurring. Helping the maths teacher to recognise maths from the
>dyslexic's perspective can help them design teaching experiences that
>access learning and discovery rather than confusion and anxiety.
>
>Interestingly, countries in which mothers play numeracy games with their
>children have higher numeracy levels than those that play literacy games.
>In the courses for parents of dyslexic children I am running throughout
>Cornwall at the moment, we are giving out sets of dice including
>multisided ones (from Warhammer game shops) and accompanying dice games to
>play.
>
>The difference the parents are finding between the child tackiling maths
>homework versus playing a dice game that explores similar topics,
>demonstrates a difference in a learning approach ... the sooner we get
>dartboard games as a national sport, the better!!
>
>'Dyscalculia' (as opposed to dyslexia causing a difficulty with school
>maths) is relatively rare. If I told you that chair plus table equals
>ceiling, and then asked you what ceiling take away table was, you would
>probably tell me 'chair'. You have worked this out through logic, not by
>understanding the qualities of 'chair' 'table' or 'ceiling' that qualified
>the equation. Similarly, dyscalculics can learn some maths through rote
>learning, but not understand underlying dimensions of number. They do not
>identify that '16' is made up of 4x4; 20-4; 10+6 etc. As a result, the
>approaches used to teach maths to someone with dyscalculia are very
>different to those who are dyslexic.
>
>Finally, many dyslexics are inherently good at maths. I read somewhere
>that 75% of the dyslexic population are naturally good at maths compared
>with 25% of the non-dylsexic population. However, whilst the dyslexic
>might be able to quickly produce a correct answer, they often are unable
>to break their calculating processes down into identifiable steps ... not
>an approach we encourage in school. By GCSE, the above statistics are not
>in evidence, supporting the suggestion that the way we teach maths in
>schools positively disadvantages the dyslexic learner.
>
>Best wishes,
>Sally (Plymouth-soon-to-be-St-Austell)
>
>> Thanks all for suggestions.  I will follow them up.  I just wish I could
>> work with her myself as she is keen to improve and has great parental
>> support, not like a few others I have to teach who couldn't care less and
>> make everyone's life misery.  Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
>>
>> Dolina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007
>14:16
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007
>14:16
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007
>14:16
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 12
>Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 02:56:34 +0100
>From: "Ruth Newbury" <rmnewbury at ntlworld.com>
>Subject: [senco-forum] SENCo Conference
>To: <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <000801c78def$749dfe80$5dd9fb80$@com>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>Will anyone be at the Learning Works SENCo Conference in Bath next week?
>
>
>
>I am aiming to go on Friday - will anyone from the forum be there?
>
>
>
>Regards
>
>
>
>Ruth
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 13
>Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:49:29 +0100
>From: "dolina.patterson" <dolina.patterson at btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Re: dyscalculia or dyslexia
>To: <middleroom at blueyonder.co.uk>
>Cc: senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
>Message-ID: <002501c78e18$5d94f170$0401a8c0 at SN040143620608>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=original
>
>Sally, I found your explanation very interesting.  The reason I thought she
>might have dyscalculia was because I used the Dyscalculia Screener from
>NFER.  I know that it is not just the words in maths which is an issue.
>When she is adding two numbers she uses fingers but if it is more than 10
>then she will use any objects within sight.  I feel very sorry for her as
>the school is now talking about getting her statemented and moving her into
>our MLD unit or Special Needs class.  I have grave reservations about this
>as she appears to me to be better suited to mainstream with help.  In terms
>of reading and spelling I discovered that she had no phonic skills at all at
>Christmas and now she is making good progress with decoding and spelling.  I
>believe with good teaching she could possibly gain maths skills too.
>
>D
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <middleroom at blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: "dolina.patterson" <dolina.patterson at btinternet.com>
>Cc: <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 8:27 PM
>Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Re: dyscalculia
>
>
>>
>> We mustn't forget that 'a difficulty with maths' need not necessarily mean
>> dyscalculia.
>>
>> It is very common for dyslexia to cause a difficulty with maths due to the
>> language of maths; teaching approach; impact of initial
>> confusion/anxiety/failure creating further difficculties etc.
>>
>> I would advise the maths teacher to consider and investigate this pupil's
>> grasp and confidence with the language of maths ...
>>
>> 'Multiply, x, lots of, times' can be very confusing for a dyslexic
>> struggling with terminology and memory storage/recall. We have right
>> angles ... where are the left angles or wrong angles? We write '37' in a
>> manner that matches the way we say the word ... so why isn't '17' written
>> '71'? Multiplication tables depend heavily on audio memory and can cause
>> great difficulties for dylexic students. Maths is full of squiggles such
>> as % which then have to be related to an appropriate word, concept and
>> understanding.
>>
>> The 'numeracy hour' teaching approach is not good for those with memory
>> and language processing weaknesses ... they live in overload and rarely
>> get the chance to explore and consolidate topics at the pace they need
>> before new approaches or topics bombard them.
>>
>> The impact of failure in maths is huge. It can create enormous barriers to
>> the ability to calmly examine, decode and interpret numerical tasks;
>> reduces experience and confidence; leads to maths anxiety that turns the
>> brain into jelly.
>>
>> I also, personally, think that we do not do enough to really instill an
>> understanding of units. If you calculated the length of a table and the
>> answer came out as 2 miles, you would know immediately that they was a
>> mistake somewhere. Do children (or adults) have the depth of knowledge
>> concerning litres and grams etc ... they might know 2litres is a bottle of
>> coke, but do they know the weight of 10grams, or volume of a bath?
>>
>> The meaning of the = sign is also one I have found struggling dyslexic
>> pupils often misunderstand. They equate it to mean 'and then, at the end
>> of the story, we get to an answer'. This understanding creates havoc when
>> they try to understand algebra, whereas the meaning of = as 'the same as'
>> relieves their confusion. This demonstrates just one example of how the
>> difficult decoding symbolic language can lead to a fixed misunderstanding
>> that a maths teacher may not be aware of.
>>
>> Often, specialist teachers are not aware of 'the simple difficulties'
>> being faced by students. Some never had any difficulties themselves when
>> learning maths and therefore do not recognise subtle confusions that might
>> be occurring. Helping the maths teacher to recognise maths from the
>> dyslexic's perspective can help them design teaching experiences that
>> access learning and discovery rather than confusion and anxiety.
>>
>> Interestingly, countries in which mothers play numeracy games with their
>> children have higher numeracy levels than those that play literacy games.
>> In the courses for parents of dyslexic children I am running throughout
>> Cornwall at the moment, we are giving out sets of dice including
>> multisided ones (from Warhammer game shops) and accompanying dice games to
>> play.
>>
>> The difference the parents are finding between the child tackiling maths
>> homework versus playing a dice game that explores similar topics,
>> demonstrates a difference in a learning approach ... the sooner we get
>> dartboard games as a national sport, the better!!
>>
>> 'Dyscalculia' (as opposed to dyslexia causing a difficulty with school
>> maths) is relatively rare. If I told you that chair plus table equals
>> ceiling, and then asked you what ceiling take away table was, you would
>> probably tell me 'chair'. You have worked this out through logic, not by
>> understanding the qualities of 'chair' 'table' or 'ceiling' that qualified
>> the equation. Similarly, dyscalculics can learn some maths through rote
>> learning, but not understand underlying dimensions of number. They do not
>> identify that '16' is made up of 4x4; 20-4; 10+6 etc. As a result, the
>> approaches used to teach maths to someone with dyscalculia are very
>> different to those who are dyslexic.
>>
>> Finally, many dyslexics are inherently good at maths. I read somewhere
>> that 75% of the dyslexic population are naturally good at maths compared
>> with 25% of the non-dylsexic population. However, whilst the dyslexic
>> might be able to quickly produce a correct answer, they often are unable
>> to break their calculating processes down into identifiable steps ... not
>> an approach we encourage in school. By GCSE, the above statistics are not
>> in evidence, supporting the suggestion that the way we teach maths in
>> schools positively disadvantages the dyslexic learner.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Sally (Plymouth-soon-to-be-St-Austell)
>>
>>> Thanks all for suggestions.  I will follow them up.  I just wish I could
>>> work with her myself as she is keen to improve and has great parental
>>> support, not like a few others I have to teach who couldn't care less and
>>> make everyone's life misery.  Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
>>>
>>> Dolina
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 14
>Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:16:47 +0100 (BST)
>From: Janet Barlow <janet.barlow at talk21.com>
>Subject: [senco-forum] some Friday funnies
>To: senco-forum <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
>Message-ID: <493818.1277.qm at web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Dear all,
>     A few school based funnies for anyone who's had a week like I have...
>
>  A mum and dad were worried about their son not wanting to learn maths at
>the school he was in, so they decided to send him to a Catholic school.
>After the first day of school, their son comes racing into the house, goes
>straight into his room and slams the door shut. Mum and dad are a little
>worried about this and go to his room to see if he is okay. They find him
>sitting at his desk doing his homework. The boy keeps doing that for the
>rest of the year. At the end of the year the son brings home his report
>card and gives it to his mom and dad. Looking at it they see under math an
>A+.
>  Mum and dad are very happy and ask the son, "What changed your mind
>about learning maths?"
>  The son looked at mum and dad and said, "Well, on the first day when I
>walked into the classroom, I saw a guy nailed to the plus sign at the back
>of the room behind the teacher's desk and I knew they meant business."
>
>  The parents were very disappointed in the grades that their son brought
>home. "The only consolation I can find in these awful grades," lamented
>the father, "is that I know he never cheated during his exams."
>
>  The child comes home from his first day at school.
>Mother asks, "What did you learn today?"
>The kid replies, "Not enough. I have to go back tomorrow."
>
>  A teacher was having trouble teaching arithmetic to one little boy. So
>she said, "if you reached in your right pocket and found a pound, and you
>reached in your left pocket and found another one, what would you have?"
>  "Somebody else's trousers."
>
>  Teacher: Johnny, you know you can't sleep in my class.
>Johnny: I know. But maybe if you were just a little quieter, I could.
>  A mum and dad were worried about their son not wanting to learn maths at
>the school he was in, so they decided to send him to a Catholic school.
>After the first day of school, their son comes racing into the house, goes
>straight into his room and slams the door shut. Mum and dad are a little
>worried about this and go to his room to see if he is okay. They find him
>sitting at his desk doing his homework. The boy keeps doing that for the
>rest of the year. At the end of the year the son brings home his report
>card and gives it to his mom and dad. Looking at it they see under math an
>A+.
>  Mum and dad are very happy and ask the son, "What changed your mind
>about learning maths?"
>  The son looked at mum and dad and said, "Well, on the first day when I
>walked into the classroom, I saw a guy nailed to the plus sign at the back
>of the room behind the teacher's desk and I knew they meant business."
>
>  The parents were very disappointed in the grades that their son brought
>home. "The only consolation I can find in these awful grades," lamented
>the father, "is that I know he never cheated during his exams."
>
>  The child comes home from his first day at school.
>Mother asks, "What did you learn today?"
>The kid replies, "Not enough. I have to go back tomorrow."
>
>  A teacher was having trouble teaching arithmetic to one little boy. So
>she said, "if you reached in your right pocket and found a pound, and you
>reached in your left pocket and found another one, what would you have?"
>  "Somebody else's trousers."
>
>  Teacher: Johnny, you know you can't sleep in my class.
>Johnny: I know. But maybe if you were just a little quieter, I could.
>
>
>  best wishes,
>  Janet
>
>End of senco-forum Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4
>******************************************

Ann Cooke
Director of Courses
Dyslexia Unit
University of Wales
Bangor
LL57 2DG

01248-383841/382203 (office)

      Dyslexia Conference and T R Miles lecture at Bangor University
                                    Saturday 9th June
      Cynhadledd Dyslecsia a darlith TR Miles ym Mhrifysgol Bangor
	           Dydd Sadwrn 9 Mehefin
       Information from/Gwybodaeth o dyslex-admin at bangor.ac.uk

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