[senco-forum] Re: How many rules?

Oiech spells week, not really, the /w/ in one, once is a one off. In

Tsk tsk Biff -
Nothing wrong with a wee coffee table book!
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk
[mailto:senco-forum-bounces at lists.becta.org.uk] On Behalf Of Biff Crabbe
Sent: 04 September 2007 22:04
To: Philip MacMillan; Amanda; Phil; senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk
Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Re: How many rules?

Not a piece of research published in a learned journal, but personally
I'd
recommend Bill Bryson's 'Mother Tongue' as an excellent and eminently
readable book about the English language.  Populist rubbish in some
circles
I'm sure.

It's apparently encouraging that the number of 'rules' in English is
finite,
albeit with more exceptions to rules than is comfortable.  But if you're
having to learn how to read and spell via those rules, you're probably
not
showing promise of being a 'natural'.  Those people lucky enough to just
learn to read and spell fluently without particular difficulty very
often
can't articulate the rules, or even recognise that there is a rule
governing
something that they know how to do (as Jean has attested).

So while we might be comforted by the finite number of rules to be
learned,
we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that those who need to learn in this
way
are already at a comparative disadvantage.  And it's certainly not the
most
efficient way to grasp literacy.

'We have the biggest number of so called
dyslexics mainly because reading has been badly taught for at least the
last
100 years.'

Can't resist asking what empirical research underpins this claim.

Biff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip MacMillan" <P.Macmillan at exeter.ac.uk>
To: "Amanda" <amandavh at btinternet.com>; "Phil"
<pmacken1 at bigpond.net.au>;
<senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [senco-forum] Re: How many rules?

> Oiech spells week, not really, the /w/ in one, once is a one off.  In
no
> other word can you find the o representing the /w/ sound.  ch is never
hard
> /k/ at the end of a word, it needs an e or other letters to follow it
eg
> Michael and usually indicates a Greek derivation,  ie for /ee/ sure
and
> there are many examples.  Its all a bit like the trick the whole
language
> freaks used to pull on ghoti =  fish.  gh only says   /f/ at the end
of a
> word never at the beginning, o - /i/ as in women is a one off  and ti
will
> never say /sh/ at the end of a word but only if it is the last but one
> letter pair.  It is  left over from the Norman French.   Our language
is
> logically ordered.  Take a look at Diane McGuiness' work and then look
at
> Crystal and Coulmas.  Good sources of information on how it all works.
It
> is a fascinating story.
>
> Taking into account the historical roots, changes of pronunciation (in
the
> olden days we used to pronounce the /k/ in knock, knuckle but changed
the
> pronuncation and now do not say the /k/ but retained the spelling) and
> propensity to absorb words from other languages eg. ketchup  = catsup
=
> catsiup  cantonese for fish sauce,  our spelling system is very
orderly
but
> it does need to be learned.   We have the biggest number of so called
> dyslexics mainly because reading has been badly taught for at least
the
last
> 100 years.   It si all down to some research in the late 1800s that
showed
> that we could recognize words as fast as we could single letters and
> therefore the paying attention to the letter content was uneccessary
> (Cattell)  and then we had look say, basal reading schemes, real
books,
> whole language, readiing recovery and all the rest of the badly
thought
out
> approaches all from research that  was ecologically invalid and was
> recognized as such almost immediately, but it still went on to
determine
> reading curricula.  Bandwagons!   The problem with education is that
it
> seems to prefer research that is qualitative or based on
questionnaires,
> observation etc. and not on empirical causal enquiry.  And before
everyone
> starts screaming about reading recovery take a look at Center et al
and
> Shanahan & Barr.  If you want more references on this I can supply
them.
> That the situation is not changing can be found in the fact that
despite
the
> Rose Report Reading Recovery is going to be re introduced to 10 LEAs.
The
> empirical research says clearly that the effects do not last so why is
more
> taxpayer's money being spent on it?
>
> Philip EP
>
> Center, Y., Wheldall, K. & McNaught, M. (1995) "An Evaluation of
Reading
> recovery". Reading Research Quarterly, 30, p. 240-263.
>
>
>
> Coulmas. Florian (1989). "The Writing Systems of the World",  Basil
> Blackwell Ltd. Oxford, England  1989.
>
> Crystal, D. (1987) " the Cambridge Encyclopaedia of the English
Language".
> Cambridge, Cambridge University Press.
>
>
>
> McGuiness, D. (1997) "Why Our Children Can't Read: and what we can do
about
> it". New York. The Free Press.
>
>
>
> Shanahan, T. & Barr, R. (1995) "Reading recovery: An independent
evaluation
> of the effects of an early instructional intervention for at risk
learners".
> Reading Research Quarterly, 30,  p. 958-996.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda" <amandavh at btinternet.com>
> To: "Phil" <pmacken1 at bigpond.net.au>; <senco-forum at lists.becta.org.uk>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 6:36 AM
> Subject: RE: [senco-forum] Re: How many rules?
>
>
> > And oiech spells 'week'.
> >  o as in one
> >  ie as in field
> >  ch as in Christmas
> >  Amanda
> >  Secondary SENCO
> >  Cornwall
> >
> > Phil <pmacken1 at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >
> > Do you know that
> >
> > Ghoti spells 'fish"
> >
> > Gh as in enough (gh =f),
> > 'o' as in women (this comes from Australia and they say 'wimen")
> > 'ti' as in station
> >
> > Good example of the difficulty of learning rules/sound patterns.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How many rules do u have to get that 80%?
> > Even with all those rules, u are saying that
> > 1 word in every 5 is irregular,
> > often the high frequency words.
> >
> > And the very people who need the rules the most
> > are the ones with memory difficulties.
> >
> > In 1975 I discovered Alpha to Omega
> > and was amazed by all the 'rules'.
> > I did not know they existed,
> > let alone that anyone needed to learn them.
> >
> > Jean
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jean Hutchins, SE Surrey DA.
> > RSA Dip SpLD, AMBDA, retired.
> > E-mail: jeanhutchins1 at ntlworld.com
> > British Dyslexia Association Web: www.bdadyslexia.org.uk
> > Also into spelling reform: www.simplifiedspelling.org
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Amanda
> > Secondary SENCO
> > Cornwall
> >
> >
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